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  • #479824

    Fruitcake
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    Meanwhile, while Brexit is still a bone of contention to all, women in a certain age group are still trying to get the increased age for receiving a government pension reversed to 60, by mounting a strong campaign they did succeed in getting a judicial review in the High Court last week, but the result was ‘Judgment has been reserved’ and looking at this report it is unlikely they will succeed I think.

     

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    #479852

    Paul
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    If you look at the history of womens pensions and taking account of the fact that women are more likely to vote Tory it was that great supporter of womens rights, Thatcher that started this process and she was only there as a result of the support of women.

    There are various reasons that there are problems with pensions for women, this was recognised many years ago and has not changed much in the present day, but the Tory government still made the changes.

    This matter pales into insignificance when compared to the way widows of pensioners in private schemes are treated. and to women who are due to get a pension as the result of being dependent on their partner. Thatcher and the Tory party stopped dependent pensions.

    The following gives an outline of the history

    http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-scandal-of-womens-pensions-in-britain-how-did-it-come-about

    The final paragraph shows that many statements about pensions are untrue and for women are very bad.

    “It is also hard to believe that there is any solution to this ‘scandal’ other than an adequate, universal, basic state pension for all citizens. The net cost by 2030 of a pension at the 2005 threshold for means testing ( £105 per week or 22% of national average earnings) is estimated at around £3 billion. This is less than one-third of the £10 billion savings which will result from the raising of women’s state pension age from 60 to 65 between 2010 and 2020, which was agreed some time ago. Furthermore, the National Insurance Fund has a growing surplus, due to paying price-linked benefits while collecting earnings-linked contributions. By March 2006 the surplus is projected to be £34.6bn, of which £25bn can be treated as usable surplus, above the reserve which must be kept for prudential reasons. If current policies continue, the surplus in the fund will be about £60bn by 2009. This is a convenient extra source of revenue for the Treasury, but it could fund better pensions. Income to the NI fund could be further increased by raising or abolishing the Upper Earnings Limit on contributions to the State Second Pension. There would also be savings on the considerable cost of administering means-tested schemes. Also, as the Turner Commission’s Second Report suggests, and as the Minister for Work and Pensions has proposed (7 February, 2006), a further source of finance in the longer term would result from a gradual raising of the pension age. A decent basic state pension for all is affordable.

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    #479949

    Fruitcake
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    Interesting Paul!

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    #480042

    Jazzy
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    That’s really interesting reading Paul. I didn’t realise the government could dip into the NI fund like that. Wonder if there is still a surplus now, 13 years on from when this article was written? Pretty much robbery really considering these are contributions people and their employers have paid into.

    Even so it makes the situation of these women even more disgraceful 😡

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    #480043

    Bonjour
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    It seems clear that the claimants and everyone else affected were discriminated against because of age sex and a combination of the two. Furthermore when these ladies started work they were told that they would in return for their contributions taken from their pay that they would receive a pension from age 60. To welch on this seems to me a breech of contract. We should not however be surprised when consecutive governments  continue to squander billions, whilst shafting the population to pay for it.

     

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    #480048

    Roger Wood
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    I can understand why the women want their pensions at 60, as they once thought they would receive it at that age. What I can’t understand is how a mans pensionable age has gone up but not a lot said, or have I missed something? If there is a breach of contract (not really sure there was one but…) with the pension for women, then there would be one for men.
    Now I come to equality, which I firmly believe in before anyone thinks I’m not. It is a well known fact that the fairer sex live longer in general than the menfolk, so how does equality work with pensions?

    I believe the UK is not alone is raising the pensionable age, I am minded to think that the NHS and other health parties have learned a lot about health problems/issues in the last 20-30 years or so and therefore people are living longer, thus the pension pot has been stretched and maybe the lower limit means that people living longer will cost all the countries a lot more than once was budgeted for?

    I do think that if the women (and men) do get their previous pensionable age back to what it was, then other people who didnt get their own paid until years later should they get theirs back dated retrospectively or??

    It is a very difficult situation and personally I think 65 for all would be the fairest way but then that affects people who expected it at 60. Good luck to them anyway.

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    #480052

    Michael
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    To play the Devil’s Advocate – those fighting for equality should be careful what they wish for. Nor is it an insignificant amount. Assuming  a pension of roughly £5,000 for the years of 60 to 67 now foregone – roughly £35,000. Equality comes at a cost.

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    #480056

    Jazzy
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    Roger and Michael, if you read Paul’s link and this one from the WASPI website it explains how this has disadvantaged certain women more than men so perhaps explains why there hasn’t been the same kind of outcry from men.

    To me it’s not equality, but a continuation of decades of inequality…

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    #480057

    tigre
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    Exactly, WASPI, say they are not against equalisation, but the lack of notice given to women born in the 50’s that expected and planned for their state pension to be paid at the age of 60, which has resulted in them not being finacially prepared.

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    #480070

    Paul
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    This is a copy of a reply to a question raised with me recently, the links below help to understand why womens pensions were paid at 60. The initial issue  raised in 1994 concerned the stopping of pensions to dependent partners and others. This led me to look at the changes to womens pensions and it was evident then that there was going to be a problem with the delay in payment but as you will see when the issue was raised by myself and others the matter was played down. Well yet again history proves how bad some political decisions are.

    The position for widows who get a pension from their late partners private pension fund are even more of a scandal that has not yet been raised by the main stream media or womens groups.

     

    “Hi the answer is yes but the official figure is estimated at 300000 to 500000 but the actual figure could be as high as 2 million because no one knows the extent of the problem. It is only recently that it has become evident that this withdrawal of “dependent pension” has also affected married women. There are various reasons the issue of married women has not been evident but the cases of the 7000 or so people who have been affected by the withdrawal of pension credit is really a direct result of the changes introduced in 1995
    My knowledge on this subject stems from an issue raised with me years ago about a person from Bangladesh who gave the wrong age when he first came to the UK and when he reached his actual age of 65 could not draw his pension because the original documents stated he was 5 years younger, for obvious reasons he could not get a birth certificate from Bangladesh, however whilst I thought is was unusual we came across the same thing with our Spanish friend. Because of where they lived it was sometime weeks before they could register the birth, and so as not to break the law they registered it within a few days of  the register. that was in some cases a bit like the Liz they had 2 birthdays.
    Anyway back to the subject at hand as I say as a result of my research I established that women who were dependent on the husband would not get a dependent pension, and as most Bengalideshi women come within that category they would suffer.
    This was before the legislation was passed into law and the person I was helping was a Labour councillor who raised the issued to be told it would not affect many women, well it is not starting to do so.
    When Warsi started their campaign I wrote them giving supported arguments for my understanding and all they said was it was not their problem and when I asked them to put details on their web page they declined to do so on the same reason as to few people would be affected even though the official fig was 500000.
    The question arose again in Spain recently women who had never paid a stamp were denied any kind of pension and did not get a pension by virtue of their husband contributions, they were told to claim pension credit but as they lived in Spain they cannot claim pension credit.
    As most of them did not pay into the system they did not expect a pension so did not see what they could do.
    This is the reason I am so pissed of with women for being so keen to vote Tory when they are the worst suffers under the evil womans changes and the further changes that were partly as a result of proposals involving Mad May.
    It goes on and I have to agree that some women are being treated badly but not the Waspi women.
    The changes to the pension ages was as a result of a case an employee brought because he could not get his works pension at the same age as a womans not as is suggested in one of the notes below because of pressure from the EU. This argument has been used by various parties to lay the blame at the feet of the EU. that is not true yet they still persist with “Johnsonian” lies.
    The Waspi argument is that women did not have sufficient time but that is wrong, the issue has been in the public domain since 1989.
    The problem is that whilst letters were sent to some women after the legislation in 1994 the DSS did not have up to date addresses for most women, either because they did not work or were on low wages and did not pay NIC so the DSS did not have a current address. They did issue letters to about 3 million women telling then of the changes and did make press statements and adds.
    You will note from the scandal of womens pensions that various conclusions are drawn one of which is about the amount that the pension fund was in credit by 2006, this information was known by the evil womans government and later ones but it was stated that there is not enough coming in to support pensions being paid at 65.
    Well that argument does did not and still does not hold water as far back as 1990 it was known that the pension age for men could be reduced to 63 and raise for women over a long period to 63 and there would be no effect on the exchequer. These facts were ignored by the evil womans government  who were only elected because of the female vote, but womens organisations were not able to come together or to concerned with other matters of equality to challenge the position.
    There are other statements in that paper that do not fully reflect the true position.
    The comparison with Germany is not strictly accurate. Unlike most if not all the UK is not called a funded pension in Spain and Germany for example the pot is topped up every so often to pay for state pensions and as we found in Spain most get much larger pensions that people do in the UK. The UK counter this by saying that when other benefits available are taken into account the pension is the same. Well that maybe the case but as benefits are now severly restricted it does mean that most people do not get as much benefit as the would if they got a proper sate pension. Unfortunately  this affects women to a much greater extent than men.
    Sorry about the length of this email but I do feel quite passionate about this matter but women are at times there own worst enemy and when you point this out and give reasons you are called a misogynist.
    As an aside I did look at the history of the state pension and one thing I found was that if the evil woman had not made the changes she made to the contribution system then there would be  no supposed underfunding, which there is not anyway with the excess being now put a in excess of £100 bn

    There are 2 bits of reading which should help understand the problem

    The ‘scandal’ of women’s pensions in Britain: how did it come about?

    The ‘scandal’ of women’s pensions in Britain: how did it come about?
    History & Policy

    http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-scandal-of-womens-pensions-in-britain-how-did-it-come-about

    http://www.web40571.clarahost.co.uk/statepensionage/SPA_history.htm
    You will see from these that the problem with womens pensions was first identified years ago and one of the remedies was to give women the state pension from 60. The same problems with womens pensions still exist today”

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    #480073

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    I seem to remember many years ago that some women started pushing for  equality in pensions with men. The Government said OK and put their pension age up to 65 and they basically got what they asked for.

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    #480075

    Paul
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    You need to read my links it was not women in general, it was the evil Tory woman  who caused this problem

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    #480078

    Roger Wood
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    The problem as my wife said, speaking as a woman “We want equality but in the way some women wish it and not others” which sort of makes huge swathe of yes and no’s to whatever, from the simple door opening, the giving up of a seat to  this rather larger problem of pensions.

    I did ask but maybe no one is worried about the fact that e.g my wife waited nearly three years and had the date changed she would receive her pension twice in the NI letters she received. Would she get the repayment retrospectively, she isn’t worried by the way but it seems that to give the woman from the 50’s, they will need to offer back payments to all who waited longer than 60 years old. Then we come to the ladies even later, say the start of the 60’s, I don’t know but have they been warned as many of the 50’s ladies were and then many will say they never received news or heard about having to wait. I hate to say this but over the years we have met ladies that paid little in, they have lived in Spain (and to a lesser extent, France) for 10-20 years and are amongst the complainants about having no pension until they reached 67 and these are among the “expats” that have complained long and hard about immigrants scrounging in the UK. No I am not saying women that have worked for their pensions but those that have barely paid in to the NI but want “equality” with the women that did..!! And I have listened to them harp on but bit my tongue. In other words, I don’t know the answer but I do know what equality and inequality means.

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    #480079

    tigre
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    Paul, when you say about women living in Spain that had not paid NI, why was that? Could they not have paid voluntary contributions to the UK while living in Spain? Everyone has to have paid at least 10yrs of NI contributions to be entitled to a stated pension, women were often credited these while at home looking after children.

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    #480085

    kate bush
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    Well, how about this then.  I was born in September 1953 and received my state pension in November 2017 (age 64yrs 2 months).  My school friend, born July 1954, doesn’t receive her pension until May 2020!  10 months age difference but 2.5 years difference in receiving pension.  Now that really doesn’t seem fair!  :negative: :negative:

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    #480088

    Roger Wood
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    Kate, that sounds just the same as my wife and her best friend, similar dates. Seems there has been inequality for even those that have received it, albeit by just 10 months. Now how will they solve that? Are the women who are disputing the pensionable age, from around late 1953? As those born before are now in reciept of their pensions.

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    #480096

    kate bush
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    My school friends in the same year as me have just accepted it, although not happy about it. :negative:

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    #480097

    Roger Wood
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    Paul, when you say about women living in Spain that had not paid NI, why was that? Could they not have paid voluntary contributions to the UK while living in Spain? Everyone has to have paid at least 10yrs of NI contributions to be entitled to a stated pension, women were often credited these while at home looking after children.

    I think you are asking me, not Paul?

    Both women and men since time began have avoided paying their dues. Some of them moved to Spain, the cheap life, cheap properties, tha last thing they fancied doing was paying NI contributions whilst out of the UK. No idea about how long you have to pay in but ten years seems very little, surely that won’t get many much of a pension? What about if the woman never had children? I know my wife had so many years added on to her pension for looking after our four kids, something that was not on the books some years ago but she did work as well whilst looking after kids but she never got extra credit for doing so, nor thought she deserved to get anything more.
    No I was talking mainly about scroungers who barely paid anything in tax wise or NI wise but still want equality and I am pretty sure many of us know that type of person…..

     

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    #480098

    Roger Wood
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    My school friends in the same year as me have just accepted it, although not happy about it. :negative:

    Same for my wife and friends, although one will have lost well over £40k ! :negative:

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    #480103

    Jazzy
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    Paul, thanks for all this info, seems there’s a lot more women worse off than the WASPI women. 😢

    I am fully aware equality can be a double edged sword too.

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    #480104

    tigre
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    No, Roger, my question was directed at Paul, not you. With the old system, if you were in receipt of child benefit, women automatically were credited with NI stamps. If you only paid in for 10yrs, your state pension wouldn’t be very much, but less than 10yrs, you wouldn’t qualify for any pension, unless things have changed, its hard to keep up what with all the changes that have and are being made!

    Kate,  your friend has had to wait an extra 21 months for her pension compared to you according to the UK Gov site, you need take in to account for her being 10mths younger than you, that said, she still has had to wait a lot longer.

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    #480388

    frenchdogs62
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    I have read the posts the waspi women are not expecting the pension age to be lowered again but the bringing in of the rise to be staggered so it was not such a big hit. My sister got hers at 60 I have to wait till 66 we were not given adequate warning to try and off set the loss 6 years of pension is aprox 48 thousand!!

    I have worked often badly paid in the NHS and health care for over 45 years and when I retired at 60 expected the pension it was not an option to work on due to poor health  having heard other womens stories now understand just how serious it has been on ability to survive for many who were unable to work enough hours or obtain a work pension for whatever reason.

    I am no supporter of the present goverment especially when you hear of a the tax breaks that may be coming for those with snouts in the trough and doubt dispite a good QC at the judical review we will end up with nothing so I hope all the waspi women and there families remember this when vote time comes aroound!!

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    #480488

    tigre
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    Frenchdogs62,  are there any benefits you can claim because of not being able to carry on working? I know its not an ideal solution and may be goes against the grain to go down this route, but why not, it seems every man ( or woman in this case)  for himself unfortunately!

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    #480644

    tigre
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    Frenchdogs62, reading through some of your past posts on the forum, hopefully you won’t have too much longer to wait now for your state pension to start. :good:

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    #480830

    frenchdogs62
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    You are right Tigre not long to go aprox 10 months would love them to have staggered it some what so less of a gap I do not expect the tax breaks will be fazed in slowy for the higher earners but no good being bitter as long as I have enough for all my rescued oldies life here away from the ratrace is all I dreamed it would be!

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