Home Forums Philosophical Discussions Women's equality

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  • #330074

    Vegemite Kid
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    New subject for the debate, to escape from the teacakes thread.

    Not only can Saudi Arabian women now attend football matches, they are also allowed to drive themselves instead of being chauffeured. When the time comes that they can choose to wear the veil or not, that will be a BIG step forward.

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    #330119

    Lipstick
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    Baby steps to start with but those barriers are happily coming down. Hope it continues.

    In contrast I read the other day that some forms of domestic abuse in Russia has been decriminalised. According to the law if a man beats his wife up or vice versa it is a private matter, not a criminal act.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/putin-approves-change-to-law-decriminalising-domestic-violence

    One step forward, two steps back.  :negative:

     

    Lippy

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    #330371

    Witchy Poo
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    That’s not good Lippy, quite shocking. I find that cultural differences with how women are perceived to be so differing. I lived in Sri Lanka for a few years and women are treated very unequally (is that a word?) there. Just recently the president decided NOT to revoke the law that it is illegal for Sri Lankan women to buy alcohol. A women is not allowed to buy alcohol or to drink any alcohol, it is permitted in the home, with the husbands permission. Also if a woman chooses to use birth control pills she has to visit the Doctor with her husband, she will not be given a prescription unless he is there.  Too many things really to mention but I found it interesting to watch how content the women there seem to be and when in discussion seemed to have no need or desire within them to change things, I suppose that is conditioning and the way things are, it is easier to accept the normal for some than it is to push for change.

    I had a long chat with a friend in London recently, she is a homeopath and works a lot with women struggling with hormonal and emotional issues. She has been gobsmacked at how many women she works with who believe themselves to be beneath men, to be lower in some way and therefore put themselves last on the list.  This I think goes back to the need for girls to be educated from a young age about equality so that they are striving for it when they get to an age it can have an effect. As Blue Velvet said on another friend, “show me the child and I will show you the man (or woman in this case).

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    #330387

    Pete James
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    Really surprised about Sri Lanka WP. Wasn’t the firsst female world leader a lady in Sri Lanka ? She didn’t do much to help it seems ?

    One thing which has always nagged at me is why women who are abused remain in the household and take that abuse ? Is it that difficult to leave such an environment ?

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    #330390

    Anonymous
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    Before anyone can be equal they have to be respected.

    Many cultures and religions do not respect women or some other parts of the community and they are bought up not do so. Many immigrants who come to Europe and UK do not respect our religions, cultures traditions or even laws. Without respect their can be no equality. Without equality there will be no integration.

    It is also worth saying that respect usually has to be earned and is not a right. Most of the posters here already respect women automatically by being polite and perhaps holding the door open however there are those women who demonstrate their lack of respect and  their unworthiness of respect.

    Both respect and equality work both ways or not at all.

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    #330578

    Breadhead
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    Who said this, and BTW I agree:

    “I think women are foolish to pretend they are equal to men.  They are far superior and always have been. Whatever you give a woman, she will make greater.  If you give her sperm, she’ll give you a baby.  If you give her a house, she’ll give you a home.  If you give her groceries, she’ll give you a meal.  If you give her a smile, she’ll give you her heart.  She multiplies and enlarges what is given to her.  So, if you give her any crap, be prepared to receive a ton of shit!

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    #330614

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    Like it, BH, and very true.

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    #330628

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    Looking for the original author of your quote, BH (it was William Golding), I found at least two other appropriate quotes: “If you want something said, ask a man; if you want something done, ask a woman.” and; “It may be the cock that crows, but it’s the hen that lays the eggs.” Both attributed to Margaret Thatcher and found on brainyquote.com.

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    #330717

    Breadhead
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    Correct VK

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    #330738

    tigre
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    Homosexuality is supposedly still illegal in Sri Lanka.

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    #330835

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    No human being should have to ‘earn’ the right to be treated equally to another human being coldwetand atsea. Respect and rights are 2 different things and rights are generally what equality is all about.

     

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    #330844

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    Absolutely Jazzy. Rights are given as a whole not to the lowest nor the highest but to the whole. How can respect have anything to do with the rights of people, except the rights of people must be respected….

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    #330847

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    Male homosexuality is still illegal in lots of countries, but I don’t know if there is an equal stigma attached to female homosexuality in those countries.

    One thing which has always nagged at me is why women who are abused remain in the household and take that abuse? Is it that difficult to leave such an environment?

    Abuse is often subtle at the beginning and can start psychologically and verbally, demeaning the victim and diminishing her capacity to take control of and change the situation. Thereafter, if or when it becomes physical, the woman is less able to see the problem for what it is and the reasons for staying are, to them, real and various: He loves me really, he only does it when he’s drunk; it’s my fault, I shouldn’t have wound him up; I don’t have anywhere else to go; if I leave he’ll take it out on the children; if we leave he’ll hunt us down and do something even worse, and, often enough; better the devil you know, eh? There are lots worse out there.

    That’s why battered women’s shelters are so important and, to an extent, nosey or concerned neighbours, who might decide to raise the alarm otherwise. Most of the time, however, we really don’t know what goes on behind closed doors.

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    #330883

    Pete James
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    Well put VK.

    I suppose each case is different with many women staying ‘for the sake of the kids’. I know of two women who left  verbal & physical abuse after the kids had left home, one who actually left the home after the wedding reception of their son.

    This is a true story (unfortunately). My late wife was from north-east Scottish fishing family stock. It’s a hard way to earn a living and the family members in most cases are hardened individuals. My mother in law had three brothers all of whom followed the exact pattern of their father. His father, whom I recall was also of  the same character He was a heavy drinking, Capstan Full Strength fisherman who regularly beat his wife (she is still alive and tells some gruesome stories) and even raped her when the youngest son was conceived. All three sons are clones of their father and two of them died from alcohol related problems. The mother of the sons stayed with her husband and put up with the lifetime of abuse because she is deeply religious (High Church of Scotland) and knew it was her ‘duty’ to stay with him whatever his character. She hated her husband but put up with all that.

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    #330902

    tigre
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    Reg, you wrote ‘ Rights are given as a whole, not to the lowest nor the highest, but to the whole’.

    You left out two words in your statement ‘ Should be’.

     

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    #330914

    Lipstick
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    Wow, Pete James, that really brought tears to my eyes. Poor woman to have put up with that because she felt bound by her religious beliefs.

    A friend of many was ‘mentally’ abused by her husband, but for a long time no-one was aware of it. He was very charming and intelligent but obviously we only saw one side of him. Behind closed doors he used to ‘work’ on her mind until she was convinced that she was ‘losing it’. One time he moved her car, which was parked on the road outside their house, to a street nearby and convinced her she had left it there.  He worked overseas a lot  and would deliberately give his wife the wrong date of his return flight so that she would turn up at the airport on the wrong day only for him not to be there then tell her it was her memory going. This happened a couple of times then, as I was a travel agent, she started asking me to check the flight schedules from the destination he was coming from to see if there was a flight coming in on the day he told her – there never was. That was when she confided in me and the extent of his tricks was astounding – once he took his son’s bike from the shed and hid it elsewhere and told his wife that it had been stolen because she had left the shed unlocked. He’d make appointments with various people to come to the house, claiming it was his wife who had made them – roofers, double-glazing, etc etc. Obviously she knew nothing about the appointments and had to deal with some very annoyed  people. He chipped away at her mind until she turned from a vibrant, funny woman into a woman on the edge of a breakdown. Eventually her friends convinced her that she needed help, which she did get and she ultimately got herself a flat and moved herself and the kids out whilst her husband was away. He did get help himself but it was too late, he’d lost his family.

    Lippy

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    #330917

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    Why? When rights are given was my point, not if they should be. In other words when rights are given, one can’t disallow them due to any person, or persons being disrespectful at the top or bottom. Perhaps that is clearer?

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    #330923

    tigre
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    Because rights aren’t always given as a whole to everyone.

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    #330932

    Pete James
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    Blimey Lippy, that sounds bad. Playing such mind games  must be an easy way to attack someone. Just imagine how TV adverts for example work on the mind, convincing us to buy this or that. The way supermarkets are laid out or hidden ‘messages’ in piped music or whatever.  We are all vunerable, usually without realising it probably.

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    #330935

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    I was answering Jazzy who said:
    “No human being should have to ‘earn’ the right to be treated equally to another human being coldwetand atsea. Respect and rights are 2 different things and rights are generally what equality is all about”
    Thus I was talking about rights being given as such and equally to those at the top and bottom regardless, when rights are given. I really thought that my point was quite obviously in answer to what Jazzy had posted. You have attempted to put it in to a far wider aspect which was not my intention.

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    #330938

    Jazzy
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    That’s a terrible tale lippy and a classic case of coercive control by the sound of it. Now a criminal offence in the UK.

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    #330941

    tigre
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    To me it wasn’t quite obvious, Reg, as you know we all read things and often perceive them differently, this doesn’t necessarily make you right, or me wrong for that matter.

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    #330968

    tigre
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    Awful, Lippy, thank goodness for good friends and some courage.

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    #331061

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    Reg, you wrote ‘ Rights are given as a whole, not to the lowest nor the highest, but to the whole’. You left out two words in your statement ‘ Should be’.

    Exactly, tigre. In many non-Western societies women don’t have rights; even if they are respected by their husbands and children, their society, in general, treats them as commodities and property.

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    #331067

    tigre
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    Pleased you could see that, VK, take India and the cast system, if someone is born in to a lower cast you don’t have the same rights to that of someone born in to a higher cast, although they should have.

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    #331093

    Blue velvet
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    Lippy what a very sad  story, I’m so pleased she had the courage to tell you!   :heart: Thank you for helping her, and well done for her emense courage to ‘escape from her situation’. The husband sounded a real control freak! plus he himself sounds as if he needs a good psychiatrist!  :negative:

     

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    #331101

    Blue velvet
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    Also Pete’s story too, horrific !  I can fully understand the treatment his M.i.L received , a very brave lady  :rose:

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    #331107

    Pete James
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    It was actually my m i l’s sister in law ( if that makes sense !) She is a lovely lady now in her late ’80s and still in Fraserburgh. She was one of the Scots fisher girls who went down to Yarmouth after the war to work on the docks gutting fish from  october to march. She would then return to Scotland for the other six months to work in a factory. One heck of a tough life !

    She recalls that her hands were full of cuts so you can imagine the working conditions with the cold weather and the salt in the wounds etc…..

     

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    #331122

    Blue velvet
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    Strong beautiful women! Pete, full of humour, hard work and laughter!  :rose:

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    #331130

    Pete James
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    I don’t know if they make ’em like that anymore ?

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